What DEI is Really About with Stacey Gordon
We are releasing this episode just a few days after Elon Musk dropped his bombshell tweet, “DEI must DIE”, stirring the pot in his typical fashion. He argued that the point of DEI was to end discrimination, not replace it with different discrimination.
This latest outburst against what he calls the ‘woke culture’ reassured me (again!) that getting off Twitter a while ago was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. But, in the spirit of understanding the full spectrum of opinions on divisive workplace issues, I ventured way out of my comfort zone. I trawled through the quagmire of comments on Musk’s post, bracing myself for what I’d discover.
Predictably, a significant chunk of Musk’s fanbase wasn’t articulating their points with grace, veering into overtly racist territories, spouting hate and inflammatory rhetoric. But there were also some voices expressing concerns with a more measured tone. They raised flags about the potential pitfalls of diversity quotas, challenging the idea that DEI might prioritize representation over qualifications and merit.
As I perused the comments, I wished some of the folks in the thread could hear my conversation with my guest today, Stacey Gordon.
In my conversation with Stacey, our emphasis is on how an inclusive environment that genuinely values varied experiences and perspectives leads to more robust, innovative, and resilient organizations. This isn’t about pandering to political correctness; it’s about building more adaptable, more creative, and, ultimately, more successful organizations.
The key takeaway here is that DEI isn’t about giving an unfair advantage to certain groups; it’s about leveling the playing field so that everyone, regardless of their background, can thrive. It’s a nuanced argument that requires abandoning simplistic, binary thinking and embracing a more complex, but ultimately more rewarding, view of humans in the workplace.
If you LOVED this episode
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- Awakening to Equity and Justice at Work with Michelle MiJung Kim
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- Beyond Diversity – Building an Inclusive Workplace Culture with Trier Bryant
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More about Stacey Gordon
Stacey is a workplace culture consultant, global keynote speaker, author, and facilitator of learning with a focus on strategies for inclusion. With nearly two decades of DEI experience, as the founder of Rework Work, her goal is to create belonging at work. Stacey has been invited to partner with organizations such as American Express, GE and ADP and has been published in Forbes, Fast Company and Harvard Business Review. Her unconscious bias course has the distinction of being the #1 most watched course on the LinkedIn Learning platform and she is the author of the popular DEI book, UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work. Her approach is fundamentally rethinking how we approach talent and culture in the corporate world.
Her insights offer a pragmatic view: diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) aren’t about displacing meritocracy. They are about expanding our definition of merit and recognizing the multifaceted value different perspectives bring to the table. She offers a shift from a myopic viewpoint to a perspective where a diverse team isn’t just an ethical imperative but a strategic advantage.
Episode transcript
Aga Bajer 0:00
Welcome to the CultureLab. I’m your host, Aga Bajer. This podcast helps you turn your company culture into rocket fuel for meaningful growth. It gives you the tools and inspiration to make work, synonymous with fun, meaning, and belonging. This is where we explore how to cultivate remarkable cultures, cultures that scale and evolve as our businesses grow, and the world keeps on changing.
Stacey Gordon 0:31
So we first have to actually even figure out why are you hiring for diversity in the first place? I’m also using air quotes when I say for diversity, like why are you doing this? Because if you’re just bringing people into the workplace, but you haven’t created an inclusive workplace culture, then what happens is those folks leave. What is even more pervasive is they leave and then the leaders, the team leaders say, the hiring managers say, well, see I told you, they couldn’t cut it in this environment. And it’s like, no, actually what it is, is they can do the work. They just don’t want to work with you. Because your environment is toxic, and you’re treating them in a way they realize like I can be treated better elsewhere, so they leave. So then you get into this vicious cycle.
Aga Bajer 1:18
Hi, friends! Welcome to episode 129 of the CultureLab podcast. This episode is brought to you by CultureBrained. A one of a kind accelerator program, where culture leaders get hands-on support and guidance on how to reach their goals faster, especially now, in this brave new world of remote and hybrid work. CultureBrained connects you with outstanding peers on the same journey, but also with world class experts, including people you know from the show. And they will help you identify and implement new, better ways of creating a culture where people do their best work. Check it out, it’s tinyurl.com/CultureBrained. No need to write it down. The link is in the show notes. Today we’re talking bias with Stacey Gordon, an extraordinary leader and thinker in the space. Her book on bias is an amazing tool for anyone looking to understand and challenge workplace biases. But before we dive in, I want to peel back the curtain just a little bit on the making of this episode. So, the backdrop to this recording was personally challenging for me. It took place just a month after I lost my mom to cancer, and right on the eve of my husband’s major surgery. So to say that I was not at my best would be putting it mildly. Stacey, of course was brilliant, as you will hear in the moment. But after the interview, I was convinced I hadn’t done justice to Stacey’s message. So I reach out to my team. And I say, “Hey, I have really bad news. I think I f**- up this interview. I think I dominated the conversation. My comments were disjointed. I was not in the moment. So I mean, can you check if it’s salvageable?” So they listen to the interview. And then they tell me, they think it’s great. And I’m still skeptical. So I listen to the beginning of our conversation. And to my surprise, I find out that I didn’t get into Stacey’s way as much as I thought I did. Why am I sharing this? I’m sharing this because I know that it’s a common internal struggle, many of us face – this critical voice in our heads that amplifies our insecurities, especially in times of vulnerability. We really are our worst critics. So as you listen to this episode, just remember that we all have moments of self doubt. And I think what’s important to have is the ability to challenge these thoughts and find strength in our shared human experiences. Now, let’s hear what the amazing Stacey Gordon has to teach us about creating more inclusive and unbiased workplaces.
Stacey Gordon 4:22
Hi, I’m Stacey Gordon. And I am a workplace culture consultant based in Los Angeles. And I have been in the DEI Diversity, Equity and Inclusion profession for about a decade at this point. And I’m excited to be here.
Aga Bajer 4:38
I am so excited to have you with us. Stacey, thank you so very much for accepting the invitation. Welcome to the CultureLab.
Stacey Gordon 4:44
Thank you.
Aga Bajer 4:45
The first question that I have for you is actually the question that I ask all of our guests, and it’s about the early cultural influences that shaped you as a person. How did you grow up and what impact did it have on you?
Stacey Gordon 4:59
I’m excited to answer this question, because, so I grew up, I was actually born in London. I lived there for the first 11,12 years of my life. And then my parents moved to Brooklyn, New York. So you can imagine growing up as a black person in England, in the 80s. And then moving to Brooklyn in the 90s, as a black person with a British accent.
Aga Bajer 5:28
Yeah, not an ideal scenario. What was it like?
Stacey Gordon 5:32
It’s very interesting. I think I learned a lot. And I think that’s why I’m so adaptable. Because, you know, I really had to adapt. And when I moved to Brooklyn, it was, you know, luckily, it was a British accent, which everyone loves a British accent, right. And so it was cutesy, and everyone was like, oh, speak to me say things. But then you got to a point where as I got to high school, it was like, if you don’t really understand the culture, it can actually get you killed. Right. And so I really had to adapt very quickly, to a completely new culture, especially from the outside, people look at me and assume that I automatically know the culture because I’m black. But then I would open my mouth. And they’d be like, who, what? They just didn’t know what to do with me. So it was a time of a lot of learning.
Aga Bajer 6:25
Yeah, I can only I can only imagine.
Stacey Gordon 6:28
Looking back on it now, I still tell my friends. I go, ‘What were you thinking?’ To take, and especially Brooklyn in the 90s was a really rough time, right? A lot of drugs, a lot of crime, a lot of violence. And I got dropped right in the middle of that. So, and I do credit, you know, my tough exterior was born out of that time. It also helped me to see things. It allowed me to go into spaces that probably I wouldn’t normally be allowed to go into. Because again, as long as you keep your mouth shut, everyone just assumes you belong, right? And it’s not untill you open up your mouth and start speaking that they go wait… Imposter.
Aga Bajer 7:11
Yes, yes. And your accent gives you away or the way you look gives you away. That’s why I said not an ideal scenario, because these situations when we’re super young and we stand out, either because we look differently and we don’t blend in or we sound different. They’re really tough, especially on kids. I’m someone who has lived abroad for a huge chunk of my life. And I also see my friends’ kids and how they struggle. A lot of my friends are expats and they move around quite a bit. And it really is a challenge, especially for kids. And I know, Stacy that you get asked this a lot, even today, I can only imagine that back then perhaps even more frequently. And I do too because of my accent. I now live in Greece. I’m blonde, and white, and I don’t look Greek. So people will ask me this question as well. It’s seemingly innocuous, but but when you’re hear: “Where are you from?” How does it make you feel?
Stacey Gordon 8:05
Every time I have to pause and I go? Okay, what? And I just now I ask, I go well, what do you mean? What do you want to know? And I think for people who have grown up in one area lived in one area, they don’t truly understand, like we talking about simple question, just answer the question. But it’s not that simple. Because again, depending upon the context, and where you are, it’s like: ‘Well, why do you want to know?’ Even asking where you’re from gives the connotation that you understand I’m not from here, I’m not one of you. And you want to know, you wanna be able to pinpoint what the difference is, right? So that you can, you know, do whatever it is you’re going to do with that information. And I get it. Sometimes it’s not that deep. Sometimes it really is just, you’re at a networking event, and people like, oh, so where are you from? Because everyone has come in from different areas. Right? And sometimes I have to remember that I’m like, I’m at a conference where people have come in from different parts of the United States, different parts of the world. And the where are you from? Usually in that context just means where do you fly from that morning? Right. And it’s not so deep as like: “Where were you born?” “Where did you grow up?” But it’s very triggering, because of just the background on that. And so I usually will have to ask people do you mean, where did I come from today? Where do I live? Now? Where was I born? Where did I grow up? Like, which from do you want?
Aga Bajer 9:38
Yeah, exactly. Because there are so many froms and your story, I think, is a story that reflects more and more individuals. Now people move around and they come from diverse backgrounds and answering this question becomes more and more difficult. And as you say, it also really has this assumption sometimes and I suppose it’s not always the case. But sometimes it does have this assumption that you’ve mentioned that you’re you’re different. You’re not from around here, and I need to put you in a box and understand, you know, what, what’s the label that I need to put on this box. So you know, thinking about your journey, as a kid growing up in London, and then suddenly moving to Brooklyn, and completely uprooting your life being thrown into this new environment that, as you’ve mentioned, was challenging. I can already see why you would end up doing what you’re doing today. But I’m also curious, because it’s an easy assumption to make. Was there something else? Was there a catalyst that made you decide to focus your work and your expertise on creating equitable, inclusive workplaces?
Stacey Gordon 10:48
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I’ve always done this work some aspect of it, and no matter what I was doing, in every role, every job I’ve ever had, but formally, what happened for me was, I was actually working as a recruiter, and just being privy to the biases that, you know, hiring managers had when it came to women to professionals of color. And I just, I noticed, I was like, Oh, it’s so much easier for me to get the white guy hired, right? Get them hired, I get paid, it’s great. I got a woman, or heaven forbid a person with an accent, it was an issue. And it would take longer. And really, the catalyst for me was I had a gentleman who, you know, we’d gotten him an offer, he was supposed to get hired, they said, Oh, we’re gonna send you the offer over and 24 hours. And it never came. And it took three additional weeks of me fighting for this candidate to get hired. And I thought to myself, Wow, if I was somebody else who didn’t care about this black guy getting this job, I would have just said, forget it. Let me go find somebody else who is more acceptable. And that guy wouldn’t have gotten the job so that I could get paid faster, right? Because if I’m working on contingency, I only get paid when the person gets hired. So the fact that I have to wait an additional three weeks and do all this extra work to get somebody hired after the CEO has said, Oh, no, we want to hire this person, we’re sending you an offer letter made me realize I was like, wow, I can just imagine the number of people that this has happened to and over time. And this is problematic, right? So that’s really what drove me to say, No, we’ve got to do something about this.
Aga Bajer 12:25
Wow. Yeah. I mean, it’s incredible. And it kind of takes my thinking in the direction of inclusion. Because once you realize how difficult it is, for certain individuals, with certain backgrounds to be included, starting from hiring to what their experience eventually is at work, there’s no going back, there is no unseeing once you realize what’s happening. And I think that for a lot of organizations, the first moment, they realized, yes, the system is broken. And we really need to change that, was the moment that led a lot of organizations to saying, right, we need to do something about this. And so we’re going to start by creating more diversity in our workplace. And theoretically, it would be easier to get hired if you belong to an underrepresented community, for example. But first of all, practically, and I think your experience was testament that I don’t think that the situation has changed dramatically since then. It’s not always easier. But also, it’s really interesting. What happens once the so called, and I’m doing air quotes now, “diverse candidates” are getting hired into some organizations. This is a long winded way of asking you, first of all, how do you define really inclusion in the workplace? What is it? Let’s start with a good definition?
Stacey Gordon 13:55
Yeah, I think even before we start with the definition, I have to address the idea right? There is this pervasive view that because we are focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion belonging in the workplace, that somehow that means that underrepresented minorities, it’s easier for them to get a job. And we know that that is absolute BS, right? I don’t know how much cursing we allow on the show stock, mind my mouth. You know, there’s just some things that make you want to throttle people that they actually believe that somehow it is easier for a woman to get a job because there’s a gender initiative going on. Like you wouldn’t need a gender initiative. If it was easier for them to get a job. We have to create a whole entire program and basically force you to see the value in somebody. And I’d have to say, as a black person, and as a woman, the fact that I my literal job is to work to get other people to see my value is problematic, af. Right, like this is something that we should just, it should just happen. So the fact that even this whole initiative exists should help people to understand that it absolutely is not easier for a person of color, or for a woman to get a job, no matter what initiatives you’ve got going on in your organization, because if it was, we wouldn’t need them in the first place. Right?
Aga Bajer 15:22
Yeah, this is such an important point to make, right? Because I think there is there is that assumption that it is going to be easier because there’s so much focus on the metrics and the data driven approaches that basically look at you know, what’s the split, how many women, how many people of color, how many neurodiverse people we have, but we know that, unfortunately, it’s not really translating itself into reality for a lot of people. And thank you for underscoring that. And when you go basically through the wringer to get a job, and you get it, what happens then what are the experiences of people? Because I think you have, due to your work a front row seat to what’s happening in organizations? What’s the reality that people are being faced with very often after they get a job?
You know, to answer your question about what like, what is inclusion, you know, we’ve got diversity, equity inclusion, I think diversity is the mix of people, right? But inclusion is the act of valuing those individuals in your workplace, we also have to remember that inclusion is an action. It isn’t something we talk about. So if you aren’t actively including people in your workplace, right, then you’re not being inclusive. It’s not about something we just talk about. It is an actual action. It’s an activity when we get to hiring for diversity. Because I swear, if I had a nickel for every time someone says we want to increase the diversity of our talent pipeline, I wouldn’t be talking to you right now. I’d be sipping a martini on the beach somewhere? Because I’d be a very rich woman.
I hope it happens one day. And maybe I can join you.
Stacey Gordon 17:06
But it’s like, if we’re focusing on diversity only, then we’ve missed the point, because what we’re doing is we are looking at, okay, we don’t have enough of whatever, fill in the blank, right? And usually, that isn’t based in any kind of real goal. So we first have to actually even figure out why are you hiring for diversity in the first place? I’m also using air quotes, when I say for diversity, like, why are you doing this? Because if you’re just bringing people into the workplace, but you haven’t created an inclusive workplace culture, then what happens is those folks leave. What is even more pervasive is they leave. And then the leaders, the team leaders say the hiring managers say, well see, I told you, they couldn’t cut it in this environment. And it’s like, no, actually, what it is, is they can do the work. They just don’t want to work with you. Because your environment is toxic. And you’re treating them in a way they realize, like I can be treated better elsewhere. So they leave. So then you get into this vicious cycle. Well, we hired the woman and she didn’t stay. So I told you, it wouldn’t work out. So now we’re not hiring a woman. Right, we continue in this this vicious cycle.
Aga Bajer 18:18
I’m really curious whether you have seen effective ways of breaking the cycle, because I’ve seen the cycle playing out in reality so many times. And what has been shocking to me is that I’ve seen it happen in organizations that I thought were genuinely committed to creating a thriving environment for everyone. And that’s had genuinely good intentions when it comes to creating a workplace where everyone can thrive. And then after making quite a number of hires of extremely talented individuals that happened to be part of underrepresented communities. After a few months, these individuals told me, this is a toxic workplace, and I don’t want to work here. And so A, I’m assuming there is a blind spot in a lot of organizations. And you’ve alluded to it already, like you said, you reinforced basically that belief that these people are simply not able to succeed. So A, there is a blind spot, or B, I’m assuming also, even if something comes to the awareness of leaders in their own organizations, they are unable to take the right actions to correct what’s wrong, what’s going on, and how can you address problems like that they see when you realize that great talent is leaving your organization because they find the environment toxic.
Stacey Gordon 19:51
So it’s a number of things happening all at once. And so again, we look for a solution to problem A and we might Find that solution. The problem is we’ve got problem A, B, C, D, and E. And they’re all converging together. And so you solve for one problem, not realizing that all of these things all have to be fixed and addressed simultaneously. And so that’s part of the problem, I think, is that culture is a mix of, you know, as you said, we might have an organization that has a good reputation. But then you’re surprised about people leaving, well, you have to look at where are they leaving from? Right? Is it a team? Is it a hiring manager? Is it a department? Is it a function, what in there is causing these issues? So I used to work for a company many, many years ago, I worked in the legal department, and our department was fine, right? It wasn’t very toxic or anything, it was just okay. But then you when you look at the different environments, within that organization, we operated one way, but you’d go to the marketing department, and they were on a different floor. And they operated completely differently. The way the offices were set up how people spoke to each other, you know, the everything was just night and day, very different. And then you go to the IT department. And again, very different, completely different department, I always say, Oh, I never want to work here. It’s so dark in here, and everyone is sitting hunched over their computers, it was a completely different environment, no one talked to each other. So you can’t look at an organization as a whole and say that organization has gotten it right. You have to look at the people. And you got to drill down. Because in every organization, there are departments that are thriving and doing really well. And there were teams that are toxic and awful. And, and that filters in, right. And so overall, especially when we do these employee engagement surveys, we do it company wide. And then we take all that information and we aggregate it. But do we really look like department by department to see what that looks like team by team. Because if you did that, and you really drill down, you would start to identify where the problems are. But we don’t get that specific.
Aga Bajer 22:14
Or, sometimes we do but then somehow the buck stops at that level. So it seems like basically, this person is familiarized with the data, they know that the leader, for example of a department, they know that they have some issues, but they are not being supported in taking action. And very often, especially in case of people who have created toxic cultures, it’s obvious, I think, to me that they probably would have done something different if they knew better, so they need support. And they need some guidance in how to resolve all these issues, and probably first really needs to look deep down inside and self reflect. Is this your experience as well, that leaders are not getting the support and the nudge to change something when they realize that they are the problem?
Stacey Gordon 23:16
They first have to realize they’re the problem. Right? And so for most leaders who are the problem, they don’t realize that. So there is a two fold, right? There’s there’s the side of there are individuals who are leaders who say, Yeah, I know that we can do better, and I want to do better, but they don’t know how, and especially in this environment that we’re in right now. People are very divisive. It’s difficult to have conversations and actually pose questions and have discussions without, you know, sides being drawn, and people having, you know, issues about that. Right. So just communicating right now is very difficult. It’s also where a very, I won’t speak for the entire world, but I’ll say in the United States, right? We have a very toxic leadership environment, which is that if you are a leader, you should know everything right, you should have all the answers. So most leaders aren’t going to say, hey, actually, I don’t know. But most leaders don’t know. And I think so it’s just even changing the narrative about what leadership means. Because if we are really thinking about this, we shouldn’t be expecting leaders to have the answer. We should be expecting leaders to help identify the answer, right? And that means or it’s even posing the right question, and then letting their team find the answer, right. That’s what leadership should be. But we have been very taught that leaders are supposed to have the answer, make the decision and just go with it. When nine times out of 10. These leaders have not been given any kind of management training. They don’t have any kind of leadership development. They have no idea what they’re doing. They were really good at their job as an individual contributor. and got promoted. Just because you’re really good at sales doesn’t make you a great sales manager. And when you haven’t given people support, as you said, or training or development or any of that, and you put them into a position where they are told that they’re not supposed to say they don’t know, we’ve created this recipe for disaster. But on top of that, we know we have people who have been in I think, in roles where we can see they are not doing well, they are dysfunctional. And the leaders themselves have not taken a stand and said, You know what, this is not acceptable. We need to fix this. They’ve said, Oh, well, you know, that’s just John, you know, that’s just how he operates. But he’s, he’s, you know, it’s good enough.
Aga Bajer 25:42
Yeah, exactly. I think one important piece is accountability. Because obviously support and nudging people to make a change are important. But I feel like there is not enough accountability, when it comes to know what are you going to do with the information that you have just received, because typically, what will happen is a department will receive their engagement survey or culture survey results, and some issues are evident. But I very rarely see a process in place where the leaders would be asked to come up with an action plan, and reach out for help to actually address these issues. And this is particularly evident, the higher you go in the hierarchy, which is a bit ironic, because we often talk about, right, this disproportionate impact that senior leaders have on on organizations and how big of a shadow they cast. And then at the same time, they are the people who in my experience, and I might be wrong, and please our listeners, if you have examples that prove that this is completely wrong, I’m really open to it. But in my experience, it’s often that these are the people that people who are at the top are the least willing to say, “I don’t know, I need some help here. I know that I have a problem, because obviously, my people are telling me, but I don’t know how to resolve it, so I need your help. I need some ideas. I need some further guidance around that.”
Stacey Gordon 27:15
Not just that they’re not willing to say they don’t know. But they’re also willing to say, “I do know, I have the solution. And you better all follow me.”
Aga Bajer 27:24
Right.
Stacey Gordon 27:25
Even though they’re absolutely wrong. So if we think about, you know, right now, we’re going through this withdrawal from, you know, pandemic withdrawal. And we’ve got all these headlines saying 90% of CEOs say that all of their employees will be back to the office by the end of 2024, beginning of 2025, or whatever numbers they keep throwing out now, right? And I just say, have we learned nothing. I don’t even have words, sometimes. Every time I see this, your employees are literally telling you, we don’t want this, you’ve allowed employees to leave, to relocate, to put their kids into different schools, to you know, live in an environment where they can have a better work life balance. And then you turn around and go, “Yeah, we changed our mind, get your butt back to the office.” I don’t understand how any leader worth their salt can actually stand up there with a straight face and say these things.
Aga Bajer 28:28
I know, it’s crazy. I’ve read this research too. And apparently, it’s 75% of CEOs who say that by by the end of 2025, they are hoping that their entire workforce is going to be back to the office. It’s nuts, it really is.
Stacey Gordon 28:45
Many of them are mandating it. You’ve got CEOs that are threatening to fire individuals who don’t come back. You know, it’s not just hoping they’re out here throwing down the gauntlet.
Aga Bajer 28:56
Yeah, yeah, it’s such a great example of how leaders are not listening. And some leaders, there are some leaders that are but but how unwilling they are to really, you know, use the skill of empathy that we would expect every human being to have, but certainly someone who is managing very often leading organizations of hundreds of 1000s of people, you’d expect that they would master that skill by the time they reach the position of a CEO, but obviously, it’s not the case. Well, having said that is their hope. And what are your thoughts on that? Because on one hand, this is the reality that we are faced with. And I know that we’ve been venting a little bit about what we’re seeing in organizations. But on the other hand, I know that you wouldn’t be doing the work that you are doing if you didn’t believe that there is hope. And I also know that you are doing really impactful work that really brings about positive change. So if you were to share with our listeners, when you are faced with a typical situation, which is perhaps not extreme. So not an extremely toxic environment. But you definitely see potential for improvement when it comes to diversity when it comes to inclusion when it comes to equity when it comes to a sense of belonging in the workplace, what are the important things to keep in mind? And I think particularly, I’d be super interested if you could share things that we rarely talk about when we have these conversations about creating workplaces that work for everyone.
Stacey Gordon 30:36
That is actually our mission at Rework Work, is to make workplaces work for all, we have to be thinking about all. And I know that in this environment, again, because we’re talking about DEI, again, this this pervasive thought that we’re only trying to make workplaces better for women or only for people of color. And sometimes it’s thought of to the detriment of others, right. And it’s like, that’s not the case, the goal is to make it work for all, you go into an organization and you realize that there are pay equity issues, we don’t say, “We’re only going to make it better for the women. Forget the men!” A rising tide lifts all boats, I think it’s really important to understand that DEI is about workplace culture, we’ve always looked at it as something that has to work for all it looks at teams, how teams operate, and how are we ensuring, you know, again, you can’t go in to an organization and say, we want to fix the entire organization. But you can look at teams, and start to work in those spaces, because team by team, you can make change. And those teams need psychological safety. For me, psychological safety is like the foundation, because when you have psychological safety, what that’s going to do is allow people to actually give feedback, it’s going to allow people to speak up and tell you what is what is wrong. It means that leaders are listening to what is wrong, they’re also listening to potential solutions. Without psychological safety, you can’t do any of the workplace culture changes that we want to see. Because psychological safety has that that basis of creating trust, right authenticity, and improving communication.
Aga Bajer 32:25
We’ve already had Amy Edmondson and Timothy Clarke on the podcast, and they really focus their work on building psychological safety. But I’m always curious to get insights from other guests around what can we do in practical terms to improve psychological safety in teams, because there’s a wide understanding of what psychological safety is, among most of people, now, they recognize the need for it. But I think we still struggle to find practical ways of cultivating that environment. So what would you point people to? What are the things to think about or practices to implement to increase psychological safety in our teams?
Stacey Gordon 33:13
So, again, it’s like talking about managers managing and don’t have any professional development or support, these are things that you’re going to need some support, creating. And so it is, I think, identifying programs, you know, professional development that’s going to help when you look at your team, a very simple thing that we always start with, is it’s creating a new way of communicating with each other. It’s first getting acceptance from everybody agreement, that you even want to do this together. Because starting there, now you’re already at least on the same page, right? So to be able to start and say, Hey, we want to be a better team, we actually think we could improve the way that we communicate the way that we collaborate the way that we work together. And if everybody is on board with that, you know, let’s have a conversation about that. And getting everyone to say, yeah, actually, I’d like to find some ways to improve team dynamics. Once you have agreement, that’s a great place to start because everybody’s on the same page. So now, where you go from there, you just it’s about creating agreement in every step. And it’s not that everyone has to be 100% on the same page of exactly what you’re going to do. But it’s creating agreement that if we disagree, that we can do that in this space, and that it’s going to be okay, and that if I disagree, I’m not going to be retaliated against if I disagree, you’re gonna hear me out. If I disagree, It’s because I have some alternative ideas for how we can, you know, move this project forward. And I just want to be heard, starting in that space, I think is really a great place to begin. And it sounds really cheesy but we have a little exercise that we give to teams. And we just say: in order to kind of start fostering this, we have them do what we call their personal weather report. It basically instead of asking people, because when you ask people, ‘How are you doing today?’ what do people say?
Aga Bajer 33:38
Well, that they’re fine.
Stacey Gordon 35:20
And does that tell you anything? No, right? It’s always what comes out of the mouth, Oh, fine, fine. Even if you woke up that morning and had a fight with your spouse, and you’re in a really bad mood, even if you got into a car accident that morning, and you’re late for work, right? You’re just like, fine, right? It means nothing. But we have found that with this personal weather report, when you ask people to say how they’re feeling in the form of weather, right, it opens up a little bit, you get a chance to finally understand a little bit of how people are feeling without them having to go into their emotions. And without having to be too vulnerable. Just seeing the impact of that I actually did it for a group that I was facilitating a workshop for a couple of years ago. And I always remember this because it was just so astounding. They were doing an all day workshop. And I was probably the third workshop speaker facilitator. I had them do a personal weather report. And one of the individuals said: “Actually, I’m not doing so great, and just like shut off his his zoom camera.” and dropped out of the meeting. And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And he came back 10 minutes later and said, I appreciate you actually kind of doing this, I found out that a friend of mine, a really good friend of mine passed away this morning. And so he’s like, I really wasn’t doing well. And just having somebody ask how I was doing and having to kind of put that into words made me realize that I wasn’t doing so great. And it was like he had sat through a couple of other facilitations that morning, right? No one had had any conversations, it was just we’re gonna get right into it, we’re just going to do work. And so what I think is really important about that is, especially as a team leader, you need to understand how your team is functioning. If you’re running a meeting, right, I want to know that if we’ve got a really important project coming up that half of you are not doing well, right, your your weather report is there’s thunderstorms, there’s like clouds and lightning on the horizon. I’m like, “Okay, let’s regroup, let’s maybe rethink the way that we’re doing things, something isn’t working. Right, it gives me an indication of how to be a better leader.
Aga Bajer 35:54
I really like that. And I think if I extract a principle out of this practice, it’s really making small steps in the right direction where people can actually learn that being vulnerable, open about how we feel, etc, etc. is okay, and it’s safe, and it’s welcomed in this environment. And then of course, once you get familiar with that, once you get comfortable with that, you can do bigger things like maybe being vulnerable and trying out something new that you haven’t done before, or challenging someone’s idea or contributing your own idea. But I agree that it often starts with really simple and really small things like asking, you know, how are you really not not as we usually do, but with a genuine interest in how people are doing. And I know that you’ve also been an outspoken advocate for the power of storytelling to drive inclusion, which to me, is a higher degree, obviously, of vulnerability. And I’d love to hear from you, if you could break it down for us. Why you feel like stories can do the things that for example, data driven approaches to inclusion or diversity can’t?
Stacey Gordon 38:50
You know, stories, I think, again, it’s that that vulnerability and just the humanity in us, I think you said it earlier, empathy. It is so much easier to have empathy when you hear a story versus data. And so sometimes you can take that data and use it to create a story. But the story is what we remember how that person was feeling, how it impacted them, that makes such a difference. I will say this is one of the reasons that even you know, and going back to this idea of bringing individuals back to the workplace, everyone says, oh, we need to be together so that we can collaborate. That’s true, right? Collaboration does work well when we’re together. But it doesn’t mean we have to be in the office together. 24/7, right. And when you’re able to come together and get an idea of just how things affect others, we really have to be empathetic. And I think as a leader, if you cannot find empathy, you really need to rethink your role. You’re in the wrong, right that you’re in the wrong role. I don’t want to go off tangent, but I think the other thing that is really important about leadership in this is that if you aren’t contributing positively to the workplace if you were the cause of attrition, if you were the cause of toxic workplaces, right, and toxic teams, if you were the reason that people wake up in a cold sweat on Monday morning and don’t want to come into the office, I feel like you were literally stealing from your organization, right? Because you haven’t you’re being paid to do a job. And not only are you not doing it, but you are actually being detrimental to the organization. From an accountability standpoint, it is so important to for leaders to really be looking at that. But from the storytelling standpoint, it makes the data more digestible. It helps us to kind of understand what it is that people are trying to convey. And without it, it we do have a more of an uphill battle. And it’s difficult for some people, right to create that story. In our article that we co wrote, Selena Rezvani, and I co wrote an article called, I forget the exact title now, but it was about storytelling and a Harvard Business Review. It’s that that space of we do have to be a little bit vulnerable. It’s not about breaking things down and telling people our deepest, darkest secrets, right. It’s not about creating best friends in the workplace, I don’t even really have to like you all that much. But I do have to want to be able to collaborate and work with you in this space. And being able to distinguish between that is important.
Aga Bajer 41:31
I heard this phrase, I think it’s attributed to Rumi and I use it a lot on the show, because it seems relevant in so many conversations, and relevant to what you have just said, which is understanding is just a different word for love. And I think it’s so true that once you understand where someone’s coming from, or what their story is, as you say, maybe you will not end up liking them, but you will certainly love them. I think in the sense of in the sense of love in Greek, there are eight different words for love. I know that in English, it’s quite limiting. And sometimes love feels really weird in the context of business. But I’m talking about the love that allows you to respect someone, and acknowledge their strengths, and be interested in what their needs are and what they need to thrive. Because they’re on your team and you are working towards a goal together. And so you are invested in this person, for me, it’s love. And when you understand someone, I think you cannot help but love this person and care for this person. So I can see why stories are so incredibly important. And we use stories in our in our methodology as well. And I wonder if we want to be a little bit more practical and help our listeners to incorporate that as a practice in their organization? What would be the process? And how do you go about it? So let’s say that you want to create a little bit more of understanding within your team, and you want to use stories to drive positive change in your team. You know, how do you start? What do you ask people to do? What’s the format for sharing stories? Can you speak a little bit to that?
Stacey Gordon 43:18
You know, you said there’s eight different words in Greek for love. And then you said invested. And I think that is probably the word right in English, that leaders can really step into is investing in their people. You know, why would you have people on your team that you don’t want to invest in? Or why would you have people on your team that you don’t, that you feel like you have to micromanage, like let people do their jobs, right, let them flourish? And what do they need to be able to flourish? I think it’s really important question that every leader should have the answer to about every person on their team. And if they don’t have that answer, that’s a good, great place to start, is really getting into conversation. And so I think, you know, when you talk about storytelling, the one on one meetings that managers are having, or should be having, because we also know many of them are not having them, but shouldn’t be having with their direct reports is that place for storytelling, because that’s how you start to learn right about this individual. You want them to tell you their story, so you can understand who they are and where they’re trying to get to within the organization. How can you invest and pour into them to help them to get there? It really is about asking questions, being authentic in wanting to know the answer, and then utilizing those answers to actually create positive change and positivity you know, positive communications, positive relationships, positive team dynamics within that within that team.
So that’s a perfect example. You said, do they have the time? How do you not have the time, it’s literally part of your job. It is part of your job. If you find yourself as a manager saying, I don’t have the time to meet with my direct reports, you’re doing your job wrong, because that is part of your job.
Aga Bajer 45:30
Yeah, 100%! I always say, you know, “Look at your calendar, and you’ll see your values. Because we often say: “We value our people.” Sure. Let’s have a look at your calendar now and see the last week and see how much time you’d spent on supporting or developing your people and making sure that you know what they need to thrive. Why they gave certain preferences, etc. And suddenly you realize, “Oh, actually not a lot of that happening on my calendar. I wanted to shift gears a little bit because I know that at the core of your work there’s something that a lot of us need to thinking about which is unconsious bias. You have one of the most popular LinkedIn learning courses on this topic and you’ve also written a wonderful book on bias, which is about addressing unconscious bias at work. So let me start by asking you what is unconscious bias?
Stacey Gordon 45:29
You know, it really is down to its core is just a way for us to categorize other people without thinking. So it’s a shortcut. We go from A to Z and we skip all the other letters in the middle, right? We just want to be able to quickly make a snap decision. People they see me and there’s decisions that they’re going to make about me immediately, right? You see me and you think female mother, daughter, daughter makes sense because I would have had to have been born somewhere right but I mean, there’s things about me that you’re immediately going to assume. And some of those things are going to be wrong. You might assume my political affiliation. You might assume my thoughts on whatever, right there’s just certain things you just assume that you’re going to you’re going to know how I’m going to think about something when I’m going to say about something, what my opinion might be. And it’s also just we the assumptions that we make based upon how people are dressed their accent, and it’s because we will be want to kind of like you said earlier when we talk about where are people from, we want to be able to put people into boxes really quickly, like, which box do you belong in, I don’t actualy have time to get to know you individually, I just wanna take you throw you into a box and move about my day.
Aga Bajer 47:49
Yeah, and I think evolutionarily, it served the purpose at some point, because we need to make quick decisions from time to time, we need to be able to say this is a lion, and this is a friendly puppy. But today, it’s not always serving its purpose. And so one assumption, and please correct me, if I’m saying something wrong, one assumption that is safe to make is that we all have unconscious bias. And the second assumption that I’m making here is we should probably all be challenging our unconscious assumptions, but because they are unconscious, how do we do it?
Stacey Gordon 48:28
Yes, we definitely do all have bias, right? We all have unconscious bias. Like you said, it’s ingrained, but it can be addressed. I like to use the example of breathing. So our breathing is subconscious, right? It just happens. We don’t walk around saying breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, right? We’re not paying attention to the fact that we’re breathing. It’s just happening. However, you can hold your breath. If I asked you to, you can then focus and go, Oh, yeah, I can hold my breath. And some people can hold their breath longer than others. Some people are trained military, Navy SEALs, right. They are trained to be able to hold their breath for three minutes, maybe longer in some instances. But the thing is, how do you get from being able to hold your breath for 30 seconds to being able to hold your breath for three minutes, you have to practice. So that means you actually have to be very deliberate about noticing your breathing, and then about focusing on it. And it’s something that you’re going to have to do again and again and again, until you can get to this goal that you’re attempting to reach. And so the same is true for our unconscious biases. We’re going to have them it’s going to happen, but every time it does, we have to try to catch it and say, oh, wait a minute. I just said this thing. Did this thing made this assumption about this person? Was that based in fact, or did I make that up? And the more that we do it, the more we start to notice where we are making assumptions about people And the things that we’re making assumptions about. But it just it’s going to take practice and time. And I keep saying practice, because that is something, you know, again, we think, Oh, we’re going to take an unconscious bias training. And that somehow, that’s going to solve like how? There’s absolutely no way that that’s possible. So it’s not to say that unconscious bias, you know, development and education isn’t important. It absolutely is important as an awareness builder. As you mentioned, my unconscious bias course on LinkedIn learning, yeah, it was the number one most watched course of 2021. Because after George Floyd’s murder, and we were sitting in a pandemic, everyone’s eyes were opened, and there was awareness sprats. And so people said, oh, I need to learn more, and say, absolutely you do. But we can’t stop there. You can’t take this 24 minute course and go, Okay, I got it. It’s a thing that makes you start to question and then say, Oh, I probably need to learn more. And then you learn a little bit more, and you say, Oh, I probably need to learn a little bit more. But not only learn, but practice. So the other thing that we have done is we’ve actually created our own course called unconscious inclusion. And the idea there is to get you from unconscious bias to unconscious inclusion through a pathway. And so it actually has built in practices. So micro learning with like, I’m going to learn about this concept. And then I’m going to go practice that in my workplace. And we guide people through that step by step by step for 13 weeks. So the idea is like, let’s create new practices, new habits, new ways of looking at people. And you’re not going to do it by just taking one of my courses, not saying don’t take them, please do. But. And you have to practice if you’re not doing the action, we talked about this earlier to inclusion is an action. So if you aren’t actively doing things, you’re not growing, you’re not learning, you’re not going to be changing anything.
Aga Bajer 52:08
Yeah, I think it’s such an important point that it was stressing and double click here on inclusions, action, most of us, I think, tend to think of ourselves as good people, people with good intentions, and stop there. And I personally need to remind myself all the time that it’s better to. And I always forget, the woman who has come up with this term “being goodish” that I’m goodish, I’m not good and being goodish means that there is room for improvement. And I’m trying to remind myself that there are better ways of approaching this than I am right now. I couldn’t agree more with you that it’s a journey, you should never stop, right. And the moment you consider that you are done with this is the moment that you stopped the work, basically. And then you start kind of deteriorating and losing what you’ve learned so far.
Stacey Gordon 55:24
There are two things you said that are really important. I think one is that intention, right. We have good intentions. And so what we like to say is that we want to make your intentions match impact was take the good intentions, and let’s make sure through this journey that we’re matching because yes, we all have great intentions. But then we don’t always pay attention to the impact that our actions have. So it really is important that we are doing that. When we look at the actions that we’re taking. It’s very important that we do pay attention there too, because it’s very easy for us to look at others and say, “Oh, my goodness, look at what this person did.” “Can you believe they said that? Could you believe they did that?” And we like to look outward. But we don’t always look inward. And really ask ourselves: “Well, wait, what was my contribution to this? What did I do here? How did I change the situation to make it more positive? How did I contribute?”
Aga Bajer 54:05
Yeah. Which goes back to our conversation about accountability again, right. And really assuming that we always play a role in what what is happening. And the most probably effective way to solve problems in the workplace is to first look at our own contributions, as you say, because we have the most control over and over what we do. We can’t really change other people, but we can change what we’re doing. And whether we take action or not. It has an impact. And so yeah, if we change the way we approach things, things will change. As they say, I want to ask you one final question before we move to the rapid fire questions. And it’s the question about your journey. You shared a turbulent childhood with some challenges and they use this word, it was not ideal, knowing that it can be Hard on kids, but also at the same time, what I do know is that these challenges that we face in life, they can be incredibly enriching. So I wanted to ask you having the experiences that you’ve had, what how would you evaluate that? What is it that you have taken out of these experiences, and how has it made you a different or perhaps a better person?
Stacey Gordon 55:26
It helps me to be more flexible. And that really is the key, I think, for a lot of what we talk about in our work is that flexibility is really important. We have a plan sometimes. And we want to put this plan into effect. And we get frustrated when that plan doesn’t go exactly the way that we wanted. And we keep hammering away at that plan. And it’s like, no, sometimes we really have to be able to ebb and flow in and understand where that’s going to change. And so I think for me, just being in these different environments helped me to be able to be adaptable, and open to change, and have it not hit me quite as hard as maybe some other people, I think people who moved around a lot as children in the military and things like that, as well probably have a very similar outlook on life, versus individuals who you know, lived in one place all their lives and live to one community. And it’s just a difference in Outlook. And so I am actually really thankful for that, because I think it helped me in this environment. And the other thing I’ll say real quick to is just you mentioned about, you know, doing this work, I think, yes, our company is called Rework work. Because we realize that we do need to really change up what we’re doing in the workplace. But I think there’s also this idea that there should be an end, you know, we’re doing DEI and at some point, it needs to end. It’s not about it being hard work. If we were a sales organization, we wouldn’t say this is our sales goal. And we’ve hit it, and then no, okay, now we can stop, right? We’re still always striving for better, we’re always striving for more innovation, we’re always looking for more creativity, and for the new product and the way we can increase sales. So the same is true for Dei, you know, we’re always looking to improve, we’re constantly changing as humans. And so yeah, what we’re doing is always going to change. And I think I really even at some point, think we need to stop calling it work. Because it isn’t necessarily work. It just is part of what we do and who we are as inhabitants of this planet.
Aga Bajer 57:34
I like this idea. And we’d love to unpack it with you one day to talk about what work could be and what’s the way to reframe it and the role it has in our lives. Okay, but now for now I know I’m mindful of time, I know that we’re running out of time, let’s do the rapid fire questions.
And the first one is the cultural brain, the company that I run, we are on the mission to make work synonymous with find meaning and belonging. And given the work that you’re doing, I’m curious, what would be your number one tip, to bring more of a sense of genuine belonging for people in the workplace?
Stacey Gordon 58:14
I think it’s understanding that belonging is the flip side of inclusion. And so you can’t have belonging without inclusion. And so I think that’s also another thing that we strive for this concept of, of belonging without really understanding what it is, and that we need to take a step back and really focus on creating inclusion, because if you create inclusion, belonging should happen.
Aga Bajer 58:36
What is the sign of perhaps multiple signs that you’ve noticed that a company’s culture needs some work, or perhaps even a major overhaul?
Stacey Gordon 58:48
I would say people don’t speak up. They don’t give their opinion. They don’t contribute ideas, because that usually means that they either no longer care, or they’re afraid.
Aga Bajer 58:56
Do you admire any companies for their culture?
Stacey Gordon 59:00
Yeah, actually in my book, II mentioned Ben and Jerry’s, and it’s because there I mentioned in the book that the Frequently Asked Questions page answers questions like, “What is criminal justice reform?” And “Why would reforming cash bail be a good thing?”, right? And I think people want to say, “Well do all CEOs will need to post about the things they care about as part of their company mission?” And the answer is no, they don’t. But it would be really good to know what CEOs care about. And I think we’re in a time where we really have to take a stand and we have to draw clear lines. and most CEOs are too busy being wishy washy, right, and kind of following wherever the wind is blowing, versus saying, No, this is who we are. this is what we stand for. this is the line. this is the side we’re on over here. and not that it’s about drawing sides, but it’s about accountability and what we will and won’t accept within our organization. And when you get very clear about what you will and won’t accept it makes it really easy for people to know who you are.
Aga Bajer 59:57
Are there any books that you believe our listeners should read. And it doesn’t have to be a business book, by the way. So anything really that you believe is going to help people think about cultivating a thriving culture in a different way?
Stacey Gordon 1:00:10
Well, you know, I’m obviously going to plug my book outside of mine, you know, I’ve always been a fan of Marcus Buckingham. And mainly because I think my one of my favorite, and it is a business book, but my favorite is Standout. And it’s an old book, I get it. But it really helps people to understand who they are, and who they aren’t. And sometimes, knowing who you aren’t, is half the battle. And when you’re trying to create culture, it is about cultivating individuals, you got to get all the way down to the individuals. And when the individuals are unclear about who they are, it makes it really difficult for them to know if this is an organization they want to be in. And then when the organization is unclear what it’s for, that makes it hard to. So now you’ve got two confused people trying to work together.
Aga Bajer 1:00:56
So true. So to wrap this all up, or maybe not wrap this all up, but make sure that I give you an opportunity to answer an important question for you. Was there something that I should have asked you but but haven’t?
Stacey Gordon 1:01:11
I mean, I think in this space, there’s so many things we can talk about. And we talked a little bit already about like what individuals can do to start creating a culture that helps them create better teams within their organizations, and really create a really good culture and it really goes back to psychological safety. So I do think that is an underpinning that if you don’t know what it is, if you aren’t sure what the concept that is, you want a place to start is going back you mentioned Amy Edmondson was on your podcast before so I go back to that episode. and listen to what he has to say. I referenced her work in our course on the unconscious inclusion course. and we actually use psychological safety throughout that course as well to help teams to create psychological safety and to improve team dynamics within their organization so that would be I think a good place to start.
Aga Bajer 1:02:08
Stacey, and now the plug section, this is where I’d like to ask you to share the work that you are currently doing, and what are the places, courses, or any other resources that you would like to send people because I’m sure that by now, they want to learn more about you about your work, perhaps follow one of your courses, what is it that you’d like to share with our audience?
Stacey Gordon 1:03:27
I mean, we have so much so many resources. What I have done is worked with my team to take all those resources and put them into one place because before I was sending people to our LinkedIn learning to my book, to the courses that we’ve created, we’ve created three learning pathways as well. We have a newsletter that goes out weekly, called Lead with inclusion, which gives a tip every week on how you can lead with inclusion. And so it was just hard to keep all the things you know, we’re sending people everywhere. So we now put everything together in one space. Our website is reworkwork.com But if you go to learn.reworkwork.com It kind of sends you directly to our portal where everything is. And I would say our signature course right now is conscious inclusion, which you can find it on consciousinclusion.com That’s the big thing. We’re really trying to help individuals make change in organizations and that is really where we are doubling down and we actually worked with a neuroscientist to help us to do it.
Aga Bajer 1:03:32
Nice. Looking forward to learn more about it. Thank you so much Stacey for being here with us. I really appreciate your work and the change that you are leading in the world. This work is much needed. And so I’m definitely going to follow you and make sure that everything that you put out in the world is is something that we share with our audiences as well. One last thing that I want to ask you is who would be a great guest on the show. Do you have any recommendations for me?
Stacey Gordon 1:04:03
Yes, actually, it’s quite interesting — I recently ran into Paul Wolf. I first met him years back during his time as SVP of Global HR at Indeed. Just a few weeks ago, I was the keynote speaker at the PayScale conference, where he serves on the board. It was wonderful to reconnect with him. I believe he would be an excellent guest.
Aga Bajer 1:04:26
Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Stacey Gordon 1:04:29
Awesome. Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Aga Bajer 1:04:32
Thank you, Stacey.
I’m Aga Bajer, the creator and host of the CultureLab podcast. And this is the CultureLab team. Sound producer, Heather McPherson, Twisted Spur Media. Production Manager, Anis El Nambaraui.
Thank you for spending your time with Stacey and me on this episode of the cultural lab podcasts, if you found this chat insightful, inspiring or useful, I’m guessing you did since you’re still here. Do me a solid, take a few seconds to share this episode and have a chat with someone about what you learned. Because when podcasts like this spark conversations, and those conversations turn into actions, that’s when we start making real changes in the workplace together. And if you’re looking to dig deeper into these topics, and connect with others who are shaping the culture within their organizations, consider joining CultureBrained. We put together a cohort of the best, most ambitious cultural leaders to help them accelerate progress in their cultural work. To find out more and apply, head over to tinyurl.com/CultureBrained. The link is in the shownotes.
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